Why Your Staff Training Isn’t Sticking—and How to Make It Actually Work with Dr Carrie Graham, Founder of COG Learning & Solutions, LLC | Ep 262

Please note: This transcript was generated using automated transcription tools and may contain typographical errors or inaccurately captured words or phrases.

Dr Steve Day: Today I\'m joined by Dr Carrie Graham, who has got a PhD in adult and workspace learning. This was one of those conversations which I thoroughly enjoyed. Like Carrie and I have a very similar vision. We help people to achieve similar goals of reducing stress, of about getting other people to do your work for you effectively and efficiently.

But she comes about it from a academic and incredible years of experience in coaching, adult learning in, businesses, small and larger businesses. About developing training programs that actually work. Training programs that get the information out of your head and into other people\'s heads so they can do the work. And how to communicate in a way that engages people so they actually do the training. And then implement it because they\'ve understood it.

This was nothing about creating boring PowerPoint slides or workshops that just basically bore people to sleep. It was the opposite. It was that how to tell education through stories, to ways to actually engage people at a level that they understand. And therefore they can learn quickly and apply that to your benefit as the business owner.

I truly believe this is an episode you will get as much benefit and enjoyment from listening to it as I did recording it. And do stay to the end because Carrie shares one of the best versions of what success means to you that I\'ve heard ever on this podcast. Hope you enjoy it.

Dr Graham, I am so excited about this conversation. It\'s just sometimes I get guests that come on and I read what you do and like what you are about, and then I learn a bit more about you. And I just took your quiz as well to prepare for this to find out like, how do you, you know, attract your clients?

And I think we are truly aligned in what we\'re trying to do. But I think we probably approach it in a slightly different way. So that I think makes for a brilliant conversation. So welcome.

Dr Carrie Graham: Thank you so much for having me, Steve. I agree. I\'ve listened to the podcast and yeah, we\'re in for great conversation in terms of what we do that\'s similar and our different perspectives.

Dr Steve Day: Yeah, and I was just mentioned before we came on live like the guests I love to get on. The people, I always say, yeah, definitely, there\'s no question here. The people that I\'m pretty confident I\'m gonna learn a lot from. Because that is one of the things I love doing more than anything, which fits very nicely into what you do.

So let\'s kick off. Tell everyone what you actually do, how you got there, why this is the work that you chosen to do in the world today.

Dr Carrie Graham: Yeah. I, again, thank you so much for having me. I work with small and medium sized businesses to ultimately improve their overall organizational culture and operations.

The, and that\'s a lofty goal. I acknowledge that. But the way that I do that is through training development. So I look at the infrastructure of the training program. Does it even exist for that matter? How closely is it aligned to the values? And are the organizational values embedded throughout the training infrastructure?

So that\'s the work that I do, and it has been quite the evolution. I started in, my career in sports medicine and became. And we were saying earlier that those skills are the ones that I use on a daily basis. Even though that was 30 years ago. And then I was a faculty member, so understanding how to develop programs, how to develop using best practices, around curriculum development.

And my PhD is in adult learning and workplace learning. And so that\'s like I am, I\'m middle aged. Right. I\'m middle aged. And so working with business decision makers, those are my people. And, but offering a different perspective in learning how to do their work better, is it sits at my core and, it\'s, been such a joy.

Dr Steve Day: Fantastic. And the reason that I with this so much is because, what you\'re trying to do, just to totally oversimplify it, is get stuff out of people\'s heads. Locked in there. That\'s a risk to the business if people walk out.

Dr Carrie Graham: Yeah.

Dr Steve Day: Create something that is easily adoptable. Understood. Actually done. And actually account be holding people accountable for doing that so that they improve in their work.

Yeah. Which kind of is exactly what I\'m trying to do. And I approach this through the philosophy of systems, of documentation, of creating SOPs, of like that sort of angle of training. And you know, I also have a coaching program. So I train people to train people. Yeah. So there\'s so many similarities in what we do.

Yeah. And one of the things that I have spent, some time doing, obviously through education, exposed to stuff about instructional design. And about actually how do you create content that people actually want to watch. That actually they, and actually when they do watch it, they understand it and then they can apply it.

So that is definitely a work in progress for me. Yeah. So I think I went a long way down the line on this. I\'d love to know your takes. Like when you\'re designing, maybe it\'s the matter, it\'s the training for the trainers or even the training itself. Like how do you bring in those best practices for instructional design that really you notice have made an impact in the kind of people that we\'re talking about?

Dr Carrie Graham: Yeah. So I\'ll preface what I\'m gonna say by, it doesn\'t matter who the individual is. So whether it\'s other trainers, corporate leaders, entrepreneurs, teams, right, your in-house team. And I say that I make this next statement with love. It is not about you. So when you are creating, facilitating, designing, it\'s not about you.

And it shouldn\'t be about you. It should be about the user, the learner. And not so much as what we, what is plastered across, social media and online. Around hacks and, oh, they, people are, they need auditory, something to listen to, something to look at, something to do. Like that is a very, simplistic view of design.

And as well as facilitation. But the work that I, I leverage stems from adult learning theory. And so when you make the content about the other per about the user, right, you\'ve automatically grabbed their attention. And so I know people are listening and I see the look on your face like, well, how do you do that?

One of the ways, one of the most impactful ways to do that is to ask them. Or understand who, they are from a life perspective, what\'s going on in their life? Are these potential, are they middle-aged individuals who are one, almost an empty nester, but as well as a carer for their parents? And so it\'s understanding what their social responsibilities are, as well as work-related responsibilities are. And integrating that into the training as, an opener, as a way to get them interested and motivated.

Because when we are motivated and interesting in something, even if it\'s hard to understand, we\'ll stick with it a little bit longer. And one of the ways to ask what people are thinking is, well, what\'s your opinion on this topic? Before we get started, what\'s your opinion on digging a ditch or on integrating AI?

So that\'s the first way this, and you alluded to this. The second way, it\'s focuses on building that system. So what is the system as the facilitator and designer, what system are you using to build the content? And the content should be built on the user\'s capacity to understand.

So, Steve, we both have that, a medical, healthcare background. And I\'m sure you can remember that sitting in a workshop with a researcher, and this is the topic, is the only thing that they ever live, breathe, and study, and they\'re doing a presentation. And you were like, yeah, I was, I was with them up five into five minutes, and then they\'ve lost me.

It\'s the same thing. How are you building comprehension of the information, so that people actually get it. And then once they get it, the goal is to not stop. But to help them apply it. And one of the best ways to help people apply what they\'ve learned is to build their confidence. And that\'s where a lot of businesses, whether it\'s at the corporate level or the entrepreneurs that are sharing their information, they just share it.

And it stops. The experience stops. They don\'t focus on building people\'s confidence to actually apply it.

Dr Steve Day: Yeah, I like that. And just to lean into my experience of getting this very wrong and slowly improving things. Like one of the, key things that I introduced into some of our training programs was this idea of a review request, which is a word I struggle to say. But it\'s like whatever you are going through the, this is for me training, like for my, clients rather than for the staff.

But same thing still applies. It\'s like, have key milestones where they\'re actually doing something. And then getting some immediate or asynchronous or immediate feedback on it. Yeah. Like you say. And then being able to then go back and give them that confidence and you say, yeah, you going in the right way.

Just keep going. Right. And I saw like such an a difference in people\'s like not ability, their willingness to keep going. Like exactly the things you just said.

Dr Carrie Graham: Yep.

Dr Steve Day: It\'s such a simple thing to do.

Dr Carrie Graham: It is.

Dr Steve Day: Would\'ve made a huge, huge difference.

Dr Carrie Graham: It is, and that\'s the approach that I take with working with clients is. It\'s not a you have to stop doing all the way, stop doing what you\'re doing and use my method.

No, no, no. Let\'s look at what you have. And I encourage entrepreneurs when you\'re thinking about your training system. Don\'t look to getting a new LMS a Learning Management System or an AI. Like look at what you already have. How are you conveying that message to those that you want to use it? And to your point, you may not be giving them the feedback that they need. And that might be, as you identified, that could be the simple shift that will turn it around.

And so thinking about training your teams from in small chunks of change. And it\'s those small, the cumulative effect of those small changes will make a huge impact. They really will. And when we go, when we think about it from a systems perspective, it makes it easier for you as the facilitator.

And so I\'ll share this quick story. When I started, a second career as a faculty member, so I left being a clinician and was becoming a faculty member. At that time, I was also doing more business related workshops. I thought that it was, the more I share information, I just need to talk, right? And they\'ll get it.

However, people that know me would say Carrie\'s relatively quiet. She has shy tendencies. She\'s actually not a big talker. And so there was always this tension that I was experiencing of having, I felt like quote unquote, I had to be something that I wasn\'t. Of talking. And one day I don\'t, I really can\'t remember in this moment what caused the shift. But I realized, I asked a question, it was in a workshop. And I asked the audience, a very thoughtful, yet pointed question for them to reflect on. Not to answer, but to reflect.

And then I think I was just tired of talking, and so I just stood there. But I could see the wheels turning. And the response, once we started having an open dialogue, I realized this is richer than anything I\'ve done before. And it\'s because I asked them appointed thoughtful question, and that\'s a practice.

That was, has been 15, 20 years ago. And so that\'s a practice that I use now. And when I\'m training others who say, I, I don\'t wanna get in, I\'m not training my teams because I don\'t wanna do it. I don\'t wanna be in front of them. And I encourage people to think about who you are or reflect on who you are personally. And use your innate skill sets to your advantage.

And it will truly convey and it will support your learners. A hundred fold. It will support your learners. And so I do, I, love great conversation. But when I need people to learn a skillset or understand, a concept. So that they change how they think and do, I\'m asking more thoughtful questions than I am conveying information.

Dr Steve Day: And just leading into that, like do you, do you feel it\'s that\'s the important thing? Or to be who you are, to be yourself, and to lean into your personal superpower? So for you, you found that, like the asking the pointed questions and, having the reflection that work for you. Does that work for everybody or is it more about finding your own style that you are comfortable with and brings the best of you?

Or both?

Dr Carrie Graham: Yeah. Yeah, I would say it\'s and. So when it, let\'s talk about the learner first. So when we think about the learner. When people are listening to someone talk, they are listening, meaning they are pro, they are actively processing information. And so at any point you could use a word, a phrase, a reference that they don\'t understand and it interrupts their process of information and ultimately their comprehension.

And so they\'re like one step behind in understanding. And so when you ask them a question and then pause. Right, I\'ll be comfortable with silence, it gives them an opportunity to fully process through. They\'re not playing catch up in the moment. And that\'s when they, can identify, I don\'t understand X, Y, and Z, or I understand X, Y, and Z, it all makes sense, but I wanna circle back to A, B, and C.

That reinforces their comprehension, so that\'s the learner. As the facilitator, I love listening to people\'s stories. I am highly inquisitive. And so for me, asking the question supports the learner, but it also feeds my inquisitiveness. Because I\'m okay with silence, and so I recognize that by people not saying anything, they\'re thinking through it. And I know if I just keep waiting what they will give me in return, it will feed me as well.

And so it becomes this, beneficial back and forth. But for people who are the extroverts and love to, to engage in, like, to talk ultimately, you know, I, I encourage those people to not change who you are. But recognize your learner still needs time. They need the time to understand what it is that you\'re talking about.

Dr Steve Day: Yeah. I love that. Now, and again, I remember, I wouldn\'t say I\'m an extrovert, but having ADHD mindset, sometimes find it hard to, to just stop and to listen, and to reflect in the moment. And, I worked with a couple of brilliant coaches over the years, not particularly to help me with that. But just I\'ve helped through the meta learning of watching how brilliant they are at doing what they do as in, you know.

Dr Steve Day: Taking the audience but at the speed that audience needs to go. Exactly what he\'s describing now. And and one coach in particular, I\'m working with the moment. Like, we can sit in the meeting group call and we can be silent waiting for the person to respond for minutes. And at first I was like, cringe, like, you know. Just sat there like, oh, someone say something, I\'m gonna have to say.

And it\'s not, it\'s nothing to do with me. I can\'t, you know, I can\'t. I was like, just go. And now I\'m just like totally comfortable with it. Yeah. The reason I say that is because if you\'re trying to take away some brilliant lessons from, you know, what Carrie\'s saying here. That, I think from my own experience. And from work as a doctor and working with patients and explaining difficult diagnoses or whatever it is to them. It\'s all about the time.

It\'s all about giving them space, to, to assimilate and to understand.

Dr Steve Day: But it can feel really uncomfortable.

Dr Carrie Graham: It can.

Dr Steve Day: Sorry to talk, I\'m gonna cut off, but any, of my clients listening to this now they know. I have my moments where I just fail miserably at this. And I just go. And I don\'t realize I\'ve just talked for like 10 minutes without stopping.

I still do it. And one reason I\'m saying this is, a big thing is because it will feel uncomfortable.

But it\'s also massively valuable. That\'s all I wanted to say.

Dr Carrie Graham: It is. And, you know, it is. And it can be uncomfortable. I\'ve worked with business owners and CEOs who really struggled with that. And it simply takes practice.

But for individuals who consider themselves or have a desire to mentor others, to mentor people on their team. I want you, I encourage you to consider the silence in your mentoring relationship. Because if you are consistently talking under the guise of I\'m mentoring them.

You\'re ultimately not providing them an opportunity to grow. Or, and you\'re not providing them an opportunity to seek your wisdom. Because you\'re constantly talking. Or, and it comes across as talking, but it may be in your mind that I\'m sharing, I\'m offering wisdom, I\'m guiding.

But at some point, let\'s say you\'ve got 15 minutes. And you\'ve been on it for 14 of those 15. That doesn\'t provide the person who wants to learn from you. It only gives them one minute to ask the thing that is really important to them. Whether it\'s important in the moment, it\'s something that keeps them up at night or that they\'re wrestling with.

And so yes, it, it can. For some, the silence can be uncomfortable. But it is such a, valuable gift. It is really a valuable gift. And if you think about it like that, I, my prayer is that it gets easier to do.

Dr Steve Day: And from my experience it does. Just before we, before I, I move on slightly. I just wanted to, again, talking to that. Because what you just said then. About giving people the space and the silence is like one of the things, one of the most effective ways, I think that we\'ve adapted into the company of building trust and rapport with our team.

So when I\'m doing one-to-ones with any of my, team members is something from, a guy called Mark Horstman who wrote a book called The Effective Manager. And in that he talks about the, one-on-one meeting.

Dr Steve Day: Or the, well, I can\'t remember the exact word he uses. And, he splits it into three, and it\'s 10. 10 10. And the first 10 minutes is for your staff member. For your director, he, as he calls them. And then it\'s like, so every time I start my one-to-ones, I say over to you and I close my mouth.

And like that at first was uncomfortable. And now it get always a little smile.

Because I say exactly the same thing every time I\'m doing for years. And then bang, you find out what\'s actually on somebody\'s mind. Yeah. So really simple framework to do. Yeah, exactly.

Dr Carrie Graham: Yeah. It guides you. You know, one of the things, I remember once I was having a, facilitating a workshop. And I started with my agenda. And I chose this in particular time, like, one minute in I said, no, let me not do this. Let me ask them what they, what\'s going on? What are you thinking? It was a really small group. And they started to tell me, or started to share. And immediately I shifted my agenda. So what they, the issues that they brought to the table, they were generally consistent with what it, with what I was going to cover.

However, the angle, the perspective. They set me up for success so that I could set them up for success, ultimately. And so I, haven\'t, I had not heard of the 3, 3 3 or the 10, 10, 10 meeting approach. But it is, like you said, it\'s, the same approach. When you make it about the other person first, it becomes far more valuable. Not only to them, but to you as well.

Dr Steve Day: Yeah. Amazing. So the other thing that I wanna pick up on is the story element. And as you were saying that like teaching through stories, sharing what you, you know, the experiences you\'ve had and you said you love that. I think just as humans, like we are programmed to listen to engage with and to remember stories. Because that\'s how historically information was passed before. You know, well, apparently I wasn\'t around. But apparently information was passed before we started writing things down, et cetera.

Dr Carrie Graham: Right?

Dr Steve Day: And so it\'s like just a part of our genetics. Part of our who we are. And if you, as you were saying that, I was actually just going through my mind a few of the best business books I\'ve ever read. I was trying to remember anything in those business books that wasn\'t directly linked to a story when it was told. And I was struggling and Mark Horstman, that example was probably the only one I could actually think of. Because it was totally relevant to this.

So that\'s why I\'ve remembered about it. Yeah, I was thinking of a few of the books I\'ve read. I was like, every piece of information I seem to remember from those books. All the stuff that just came to me, was in the format of them telling the story that they learned it.

And as we say, we\'re talking about this before we came on, it\'s like, nearly everything I teach, a lot of the frameworks I teach now. The roots are in the stories of the experience of when I learn about it. In medicine or whatever. And I think that\'s, how we, you know, that\'s how we, learn stuff. So sharing it in the same way, it makes sense. Yeah.

Dr Carrie Graham: It does. It does. And there, there is a cognitive component of it. And so the, there, there\'s a part of their brain that attaches as we are thinking about understanding something. There\'s an emotional element to it. And a, as we are having our first experience with something, there is an emotional imprint.

And so we, the meaning that we make of that experience closely attached to the emotion, and so that is why I, you know. Nothing against the Catholic church. I went to Catholic school as a child and I had nuns as educators. And I, you know, in my math class, I got the ruler to the knuckles because I got something wrong. And to this day, like math just makes me crazy. Right? And a level of anxiety, and so, I say that because there\'s that emotional element to it. And that\'s the meaning that we make of it.

So if we fast forward from formative years and developing and understanding of a concept. As adults, we have multiple experiences around a particular concept. And our, the meaning that we\'ve made of it, and so that then becomes our default.

And so that\'s why when we\'re reading a story or we\'re hearing, a story to teach us a lesson. We\'re thinking about what other stories have I experienced that are similar to this? Oh, this one in particular resonates. I\'ve been there, I\'ve made that mistake as well in business. And so I\'m gonna clue in and it feels really close to me. And I\'m really gonna draw from what they\'re sharing.

So it, the power of stories is great. The danger of story is if you are sharing a story that the learn, the person who\'s the learner has no point of reference. If they have a completely disassociated experience with that same story, and really it\'s, they have no frame of reference. And so that\'s why I say when you are starting a workshop, if you ask them, hey, what\'s your experience with, you know, X, Y, and Z?

You\'re ultimately hearing their story. Others in the room can hear their story. And so you build this level of interest. Or you reveal a level of a shared frustration. Like that\'s the story that you have to address. So stories, they play a critical role. And it, you can look at it from a very critical perspective, I\'ll say.

Dr Steve Day: Yeah. I can see how, yeah, live workshops like that. Any situation where you can get feedback, whether it\'s verbally or just visibly, by watching what people\'s reaction is.

Dr Carrie Graham: Yes.

Dr Steve Day: But how does it work with asynchronous training? How most of my training I do, whether it\'s with my staff or with my, when I\'m teaching how to do something. Rather than coaching, mentoring part of it. Because I do both that the how to part, the guiding people through. I still want themm to connect with the, what I\'m teaching them. Like the, I want themm to connect with the benefit of doing it this way, right? Or applying this framework or whatever.

Like how do you, de-risk the, in the, including the wrong, story now? Or like how, do you have an approach to that worked?

Dr Carrie Graham: Yeah. Yeah. That\'s a great question. And what I would offer is. When you are in person and you\'ve got a fair amount of time, you can embellish the story, right? You tell the story, but you tell particular details. When it is an asynchronous experience, one of the thing, a couple things that you can do, one is you can shorten the story, to really key elements, right?

Because, you\'ll lose them if you\'re starting to embellish and include mul multiple details. So that\'s the first thing. A second thing that you can do that actually should be the first thing is understand who the consumer is going to be. And then provide stories that are, that can be transferred across them.

So let\'s say you have four distinctly different people. So you have two product based businesses and two service based businesses, but each business is in a different industry. What you could do is provide a product, a very short product based story, a service based story if you have, people living in different regions, right?

So let\'s just say, The Northern and southern hemisphere. A Northern Hemisphere story, a Southern Hemisphere story, right? Like, so there are things, there are ways that you can curate the story so that it still drives home your message, but it draws in every person that is there. That takes thought on the front end as a, because when you make it about you, you\'re, you then think, oh, this is the story I want to tell.

But when you make it about the learner, you think, which story do I have will be the most impactful? So that\'s the difference. And that would, I\'ve used that approach and that\'s what I encourage people to do. Shorten. But make sure that it is, it\'s going to be meaningful to the audience.

Dr Steve Day: Seamlessly, goes into my next question, which is not to put you on the spot, I\'d love to know the story behind we talked about, well, I\'ve been reading, I should say about some of the methods you have. So you have something called the ERA method and I wanted to know. What is what that is and what the story behind it is to help people to understand it and to remember it.

Dr Carrie Graham: Yeah, I hope

Dr Steve Day: I haven\'t put you on the spot.

Dr Carrie Graham: Yes and no. So, no one\'s ever asked me the story behind it, and that\'s where I\'m like, oh, well what is the story? So the, that, the story.

Dr Steve Day: So what is the ERA framework, if I don\'t mind? Yes.

Dr Carrie Graham: That, is the easier, easier one. Thank you. Thank you, thank you. So ERA is engagement, retention, actively engaging.

Your audience in a meaningful way, supporting them in retaining the information and then accurately applying the information. So, engagement, retention, application, and I, we\'ve already had a discussion about ways to engage them. So it\'s, you want to start with the person, making sure that you are using a learner centered approach.

That\'s the engagement piece. When we look at retention, there are multiple ways to support learning comprehension and then their remembering of the information. So it\'s looking at, you know, Bloom\'s taxonomy. I cannot take credit for that, but Bloom\'s Taxonomy for an entrepreneur that doesn\'t have a education or learning background, that\'s a great resource.

So you, you know, start with very general information that can be easily remembered and pieced together. And then you deepen the, concept and the content for, critical thinking in particular. But also embedding ways to help people remember those things. And then we also talked about application. And so the critical part with the application, it\'s the bridge between retention and getting them to do it is the confidence piece.

And that\'s an element that I\'ve re, I\'ve added in the last year. I\'ve always focused on the application piece, but I realized like, well, what. What can get someone, or what can support a learner to getting to the application and it\'s building their confidence because we do the things that we\'re confident in.

I watch the History Channel all the time. I love learning about building bridges in huge construction. No one wants me to build a bridge. No one wants me to build a building for them, because I haven\'t applied those skills. But the story behind it is that I. I sat through a, mandated sexual harassment training at 1.1 organization I was working for, there were about 200 people in the audience, and it was over 15 years ago.

People were sleeping, employees were sleeping. During this training as well, I was a participant or an attendee, I should say, and. It was clear the organization spent a couple thousand dollars on this one day event. However, that organization was also at the same time in public litigation around sexual harassment.

And what I realized multiple things. People are sleeping at something that is important and that was invested in. Is it possible that they don\'t understand what harassment is, let alone sexual harassment, and why are they not doing the thing that is being advocated here? And so much so that it\'s costing the organization hundreds of thousands in litigation, and that\'s what really prompted my journey. And along the way, recognizing like, well, why, do trainings fail?

Why is it that when I go on the online space, or I talk to hr, professionals, and I say the word training, everyone rolls their eyes. Why is it that corporate budgets, they cut the training budget first before anything else. And it\'s because there\'s a lack of understanding how to do it effectively and, the value that it offers.

And then I started teasing it out. Well, how can we, if the goal is to get someone to do something, we have to reverse engineer it. And what should be the first step? And the first step isn\'t. Let\'s develop a training. The first step is who are the people? What do they need? Why do they need it? And keeping them central to the, experience and to the story.

It\'s just like in healthcare and in medicine, we don\'t build a, I shouldn\'t say we don\'t build a cure. I\'ve never built a cure, but you know, like we don\'t build equipment and medications and then look for people to backfill it, to use those things. We underst, we talk to patients and families of patients to say what is the true, what is the symptom and what is the root cause of this symptom?

What can we do to alleviate the symptoms so that it\'s not as painful or that they can function to some degree, but we also need to address the cause. And so that, that has been, I guess that\'s my story around how, it developed. But it\'s, I have used the ERA method for a number of years now, and it has consistently proven to be an effective way to support businesses.

Dr Steve Day: Yeah, I love it. Yeah. I knew there would be a story in there, so.

Just listening to you saying that, and I wanna just bring this up because a lot of people I work with, people listen to this podcast. They may not have formal employees. And often I have heard conversations about working with contractors.

Dr Steve Day: And like the challenges that they people face, but getting people to do stuff or lack or knowledge gaps in things. And one of the things that I try to advocate and live by is about providing training for whoever it is working with.

You, even if it\'s in some, way, shape or form. You think, oh, it shouldn\'t be my responsibility. But ultimately the way I see, it\'s like if we want someone to perform at a level higher than they currently are, we can just hope for the best that they\'re gonna just take it on their initiative and do it in the spare time, or we can be a part of the solution.

Absolutely. And, so that\'s like just thinking about. Looking at the person, like how do we help that person? And, and these one-to-ones I mentioned before is, the moment I get that, time to actually find out it\'s away from work. It\'s away from, you know, delegating more responsibility or listening to problems that have come up.

And they, that does happen. They do bring up problems within those meetings, but actually it\'s. Dedicated time to be able to have these conversations you\'re talking about. Yeah. To be able to dig into and find out what is it that you actually need. Yeah. And I, one of my staff recently we were talking about, we were working a lot on this podcast about, so we basically chop the time it takes to produce and publishers podcast by 50%, actually by 54% I think now.

Something like that, which is amazing. And over about a month I used introducing AI, but a lot of it was about reeducating and training the person doing it. To understand, you know, how to do it more efficiently or what needs to be done, doesn\'t done, et cetera. Yeah. One of the key things, this, it\'s a long, long segue.

This one, one of the key things that, helped her was me saying, what training are you doing at the moment? And I said, I haven\'t got time to do a training. I said, great. You don\'t work on Mondays anymore. You\'re not allowed to do any work on Mondays. Mondays is your deep work day from now on? No.

No, Scheduled work. Yes. You\'re allowed to go and learn. You\'re allowed to go and build a system to help you to improve things, but you\'re not allowed to do any recurring work. And then within that month, we chopped her workload down by, well, 20 hours a week. And so she gained that and then some by having that one day to reinvest and learn and apply.

So I just wanna give a story

Dr Steve Day: To, really emphasize how effective what you do can be. If we just give people the opportunity to actually do it, and I, you know, I could learn so much from working with you about how to do this better, but, I definitely think I\'ve got some good principles to come where I\'m starting from, so, yeah.

Dr Carrie Graham: Awesome. Awesome. I wanna, you know, one thing I, to your point, one, one thing I am compelled to share with your audience is that if you are. A solopreneur or you\'re just getting started, I encourage you to document everything. Any and every step that you take. What is the process or yeah, what are the steps that you take to make a decision for paying bills or whatev whatever it is that you do in your business?

Document it, and it doesn\'t have to be this beautifully designed document. It can be a basic Word document. You click to make it even easier, click the vocal, the microphone and just record yourself speaking and capture it. Because if you have a contractor you can say, these are my notes. This is what I need you to do.

The other thing is what is your goal? what are you striving toward by doing a thing? And so if you know you want to train someone, you can\'t simply say, I wanna train them, or I want them to train themselves, like gain some training. There has to be an objective there. And so when that objective is clear, it puts them on a straight and forward path.

And so for you, I\'m sure you had a clear objective by asking her that question. And when, you know, having that in mind and asking the question and having, giving her the autonomy to learn what she deems important, put her on the straight path. And so it\'s a great story, in terms of the power of training, but I wanted to provide some background for people in terms of, well, why do you do.

That what you did it is incredibly important.

Dr Steve Day: Yeah, totally. And, I love that. Get getting stuff out your head.

Dr Steve Day: And people think it\'s got to be some the big, I\'ll tell you one of the biggest obstacles I see many of my clients facing, it\'s this idea that they have to know it. Like to the nth degree, it has to be polished before they record it or delegate it or whatever. And it is the, thing that held me back the most, for the longest time.

For almost two decades of working, for myself and being a solopreneur through medical school, running a business on the side. And it was this inability to delegate because I thought, it\'s not ready. And, I think it comes from this just teaching of you, when you look at most educational, so business, development type, consulting, they\'re all talking about like doing it, growing it revenue, like, and then at some point they introduce this word systems.

Dr Steve Day: And it\'s never at the beginning, it\'s never what you just said. It\'s never the day one stuff. It\'s like literally today I\'m gonna pay a bill. I\'m probably not gonna be able to give this to somebody for a while, if ever, but I\'m still gonna start actually documenting these processes, these thought process or whatever.

Yeah, and it\'s the skill that you learn from doing it. Like you saying before, it\'s the application of the skill. Absolutely. Whether it\'s teaching somebody or getting stuff out of your head, like if you don\'t do it every day when you need to do it, you\'ve gotta start all over it. You\'ve gotta start from scratch.

Dr Carrie Graham: Absolutely.

Dr Steve Day: And so, whatever it is, and like when you, when we\'re, when, for me, like when we\'re trying to get our staff to be brilliant at something, we don\'t go and say, go away. Go on a six week training program. Don\'t do any work. Come back after six weeks and then we\'ll see what you can do. You know, it\'s like go away, do something, try it.

If it doesn\'t work, that\'s fine. We\'ll figure it out and move forward. Right. It\'s like put the box by Seth Godin. Great book. Like about having a go. Having a go. What works? That doesn\'t work. Try something else.

Dr Carrie Graham: Right. You have to. You have to. And you know, as a, I\'ve been a training development specialist, educator, all of those things for thir almost 30 years running my, running a business is new.

Like that is not something I have a long history doing. And so there were early days. There were times when I wasn\'t documenting what I was doing, and to your point, it would sit because I didn\'t need it at that moment. Months later, I\'m like, oh crap, I gotta start this over again. But once I started documenting, it also helps make things not only your workflow easier, but the level of stress that you have as an entrepreneur, it really makes things easier when you can say, Hey, I already have that documented somewhere, and it simply becomes a part of your overall system.

Dr Steve Day: Yeah, absolutely. It is a headspace thing as well. It\'s like you\'ve put it down somewhere so you can forget it. And for me, like my, one of my, I learned this in like one of my first businesses was doing student lets, I\'ve got property in the uk and so it\'s a, it is an annual turnover and I used to do everything myself, all the advertising, lettings, paperwork, everything, but it was once every 12 months and I\'ve got the worst memory of anybody I\'ve ever met.

So I struggled to remember what I did yesterday or last week as hopeless, let alone 12 months ago. And so every year I was basically learning it all over again until I started actually start creating my first, what I now know were SOPs or Operation Manuals. And it was, I was writing them for myself, my own checklists, my own little videos, my own little guides and screenshots.

And then it became more and more efficient like, but for me. It was, and it was years later before I realized I could use themm to help other people learn how to do stuff. But it\'s, you know, I\'m a slow learner in some respects.

Dr Carrie Graham: Same.

Dr Steve Day: But it was the style, the skill, the skillset that I learned to solve my biggest problems is the one that I help, you know, other people to apply now.

But also it\'s the thing that helps other people to learn like as well. So, yeah.

Dr Carrie Graham: Yeah, yeah. It\'s, it is, you know, it\'s, learning. You were learning. How to be a better business owner. I was learning how to be a better business learner and so a business owner, and so it, it never goes away, but it\'s simply what is the meaning that you\'ve attached to the word training and when you shift the meaning of it.

Just shift the meaning of whatever that thing is that you don\'t enjoy doing, so to speak. It will, actually provide you with a larger perspective. That\'s actually more accurate.

Dr Steve Day: Yeah. Love it. Brilliant. And what are there? So convince Well, you\'ve convinced me. I didn\'t need much to convince me. You\'ve convinced me anyway, of the importance of doing it.

You\'ve given me some amazing guides and techniques and things to try factually how you do it. But like, and we have touched on this a little bit, but maybe it\'s just worth like explaining like, what are the actual benefits of doing this? Like if they, if somebody\'s listening to this now and they go, I\'ve really pulled away from this, but I\'m inspired by this episode, but.

They\'ve still got this, you know, whatever that barrier, that blocker is like, what can we, what can you tell them to explain like, this is what, this is the result you\'re gonna get by applying or having a go and doing this.

Dr Carrie Graham: Yeah. So if you have a, and, you can consider the ERA method as your training system.

Okay. So that\'s the first thing. So you can then say, I have a training system in place. So what that should do is it should read. Lower your level of stress and anxiety around training your teams. Now, if you wanna live in a world of stress and anxiety as a business owner, you forget everything that we\'ve talked about today.

But that is one thing that it can, do for you also, and most importantly is you will have teams that feel like you\'ve invested in them. So while they will feel that way because you\'ve taken the time to tailor the training toward them and what their needs are, while they feel that way, the evidence, because you can\'t make business decisions on feelings, the evidence is you will have an increase in production.

If you are a product-based business, you\'ll have an increase in service outcomes and whatever your service outcomes are. Steve, as you identified with, you know, the, woman that does your podcast, not only do you have an increase in service outcomes, you can have a decrease in time expenditure. Time ultimately is money.

And so if you are hiring a contractor and you don\'t take the time to train them appropriately, you\'re gonna spend more time, more money, because it\'s gonna take them longer to do the job if you take the one hour to train them effectively on the thing that you want them to do. You\'re going to get a better outcome from them, so better service outcomes, but you will lessen, there\'s an argument that you\'ll decrease the amount of money, cost waste, let\'s call it that, cost waste.

So if you\'re looking for a reclaiming of your time. And getting time back or time to devote to something else like that\'s a benefit Revenue, it will help with revenue generation as well as savings and profit development. That\'s something if you\'re thinking about it from a personal wellness, it will help you with your, stress in particular, and, it will give you time.

To come up with better ideas to grow your business ultimately.

Dr Steve Day: Yeah.

Dr Steve Day: And then some.

Dr Carrie Graham: And then some, and then, yeah.

Dr Steve Day: Absolutely. And one, one of the things you, when you\'re speaking, then you\'re talking about Von, who\'s doing that, does the podcast stuff. One of her pushbacks to the training and the work was that we had this target of getting back into the top 3% of global podcasts and because we, we dipped down to, to top 5% for a couple of months.

And, and so she was working on all this stuff and that was her focus. She had this metric that she was focusing on. So what goals before. Was pushing for that, And she lost sight of the fact that by focusing on that one thing, she\'d not taken into account the time and then the loss of opportunity for not being able to do other stuff, which might actually be beneficial to get into that target.

So it was just trying to sort of getting herself onto hamster where was doing and doing and doing. And it was only on this when we reflected on it. And that\'s okay. Let\'s look at the metrics. Let\'s look at the downloads, look at the, site visits. Look at the interaction. Look at the leads generated.

Like what are the metrics saying for all the hard work you\'re putting in? And as anyone, we looked at that, and I hold my hands up. I should have been more attentive to this, you know, over the, over those preceding months we looked at it and actually there\'d been a decrease in most of those metrics over the time.

Yeah. And so I just went right. Now we\'ve got the baseline. Let\'s do the, let\'s do the like, not the minimum possible. Let\'s do the most efficient possible. Keep an eye on the metrics and see what changes the next week. And this serendipitous, I don\'t think it was the fact that is the next week we were in the top 3%.

Again, I stayed that, but I don\'t think it was just me, but me saying like, you know, the universal energy and quantum and all the rest of it, me just focusing on the metrics and saying that\'s, we need to be more, you know, goal driven, metric driven. Bang, I was rewarded for my attention to the details and Right.

Got back in the top sheets. Right?

Dr Carrie Graham: But you have to have an out, like a goal. What is the goal? And when people don\'t, when business owners or business leaders don\'t have a crystal clear goal, that\'s where it gets cloudy. That\'s where, and, you kind of get stuck. You get stuck as the business leader, but everyone who you are trying to move forward also they get stuck as well.

Dr Steve Day: And maybe in that case, like it was probably the wrong goal. It feel felt like the wrong right goal, but it was actually probably the wrong way to approach it to get the result we were actually looking for. So it was having the courage to say. Let\'s scrap that goal.

Dr Steve Day: Completely shift the attention to ultimately get back to that goal at some point in the future, and bang.

So anyway.

Dr Carrie Graham: Yeah. Yeah. That\'s a hard one though. I, let me just say, Steve, what that last point that you made, I think is as hard as being okay with silence. Right. Because you\'ve become so attached to a goal. Yeah. And, it means, quote unquote means so much. It, you, we\'ve placed value on it. Yeah.

And to say, nope, let\'s, scrap it. Let\'s try something else. That, that can be very uncomfortable. It is in fact the right thing to do, but it can be very uncomfortable.

Dr Steve Day: Yeah. It was easier for me, much easier for me as a business owner to let go of that goal than it was for her who put all the time and effort and when I to making it happen and for me to pull it from under before she reached it.

Yeah. And thankfully, literally, that\'s what I say, such an amazing, like we looked at in this conversation and I just happened to spot, I was like, hold on a minute. Says three, not five. And we looked at the backend and like, oh my God, we\'re back in 3%. It was just, honestly, I was almost crying because it was just like the, just, you know, incredible.

Yes, Harry, I could genuinely, and I said this a few times on this podcast, but I could genuinely just sit and chat to you all day about this stuff and I would not get bored and I, I\'ll keep on learning. So I will continue this conversation with you, I hope in the future. I\'d love to have you back on the podcast at some point, and I would love to continue this conversation, you know, after the fact.

But for now, I do feel we need to point to a close. Yes. So people can get on with their days as well. And so before we do go, first of all, I wanna just mention, you, you are, you shared a quiz with me, which I did, as I said before I go on, it only takes about three minutes to do four or five minutes maximum.

And it was very insightful and that\'s what actually made me realize that, that we have a very similar vision and mission in terms of how we help people because you are leading to the same challenges. So I encourage anyone, anyone listening to this to do that training, sorry to do that quiz, which is all about training.

It\'s all about like, how do you approach it and like how good is it. It was, I\'d say quick and easy to do and actually very useful. The URL for that? Is it is it just the one you gave me? I should give you? Give the right one. Yep. On the website. Yeah. So it\'s drcarriegraham.com

Dr Carrie Graham: Yep.

Dr Steve Day: take-training-assessment-quiz

Dr Carrie Graham: And it\'s right there.

Dr Steve Day: Yeah. I think you can just do assessment-quiz.

Dr Steve Day: Yeah. I think we do.

Dr Carrie Graham: You know that\'s the tech stuff.

Dr Steve Day: I\'ve just gone there and it is taken to me the right place. So drcarriegraham.com/assessment-quiz. Obviously that link will be in our show notes as well, but if you wanna reach out to you directly or learn more about what you do and how you help people or how to get in touch, what\'s the best place for themm to come and find you?

Dr Carrie Graham: I, would say the website, for people that like something static, the drcarriegraham.com is the best place to go. But if you enjoy lively conversation and you wanna ask in live time, LinkedIn is where I spend my social media time. And it is a wonderful place to, to have conversations that matter to you.

Dr Steve Day: Fantastic. And before you go, I have one final question for you.

Dr Carrie Graham: Yes.

Dr Steve Day: The name of this podcast is to Survive your Success, but what does success mean to you and why?

Dr Carrie Graham: Success to me is a point when I have peace and it is peace of mind. And peace about the work that I\'m doing and the people that I\'m helping. And peace in my home. And so I can be, my true realist self and I \"hah!\", that\'s in the periods of my life where I felt I was successful. I had all of those things together at the same time. And it is that\'s the feeling that I, seek on a daily basis is to have that, that all encompassing peace.

Dr Steve Day: I resonate with that massively.

Dr Carrie Graham: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Thank you for asking that question. Thank you.

Dr Steve Day: Yeah. My part of my vision, the closing three, the closing line of my vision is to live with more presence, purpose, and peace.

Because I\'ve come to realize that above anything else. It used to be freedom, that last word. And before that was success. Yeah. When I\'ve come to realize about everything else that\'s important to me in my life, peace is the thing that I\'ve spent my entire life striving to achieve. So. I hear you and I see you, and that\'s a, wonderful, wonderful answer.

And the one I probably resonate with the most, most closely of any answer I\'ve ever had to that question. So thank you.

Dr Carrie Graham: Yeah, you are welcome. Thank you. Thank you.

Dr Steve Day: Dr Carrie Graham, it\'s been an absolute pleasure having you on the show. I encourage everyone who\'s listened to this to get in touch with Carrie, if you are a small business owner. And you need help by making your team better and finding more peace in your life, so.

Dr Carrie Graham: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much, Steve. I appreciate having me.

Why Your Staff Training Isn’t Sticking—and How to Make It Actually Work with Dr Carrie Graham, Founder of COG Learning & Solutions, LLC | Ep 262

KEY TAKEAWAYS: Staff Training That Builds Confidence, Not Dependency

BEST MOMENTS: Insights That Redefine Staff Training

TIMESTAMPED OVERVIEW

Episode Transcript

VALUABLE RESOURCES (For Staff Training That Actually Works!)

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ABOUT THE GUEST

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ABOUT THE HOST

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Why Your Staff Training Isn’t Sticking—and How to Make It Actually Work with Dr Carrie Graham, Founder of COG Learning & Solutions, LLC | Ep 262

​KEY TAKEAWAYS: Staff Training That Builds Confidence, Not Dependency

BEST MOMENTS: Insights That Redefine Staff Training

TIMESTAMPED OVERVIEW

Episode Transcript

VALUABLE RESOURCES (For Staff Training That Actually Works!)

LINKS TO CONNECT WITH THE GUEST

ABOUT THE GUEST

LINKS TO CONNECT WITH THE HOST

ABOUT THE HOST

For more articles related to staff training and learning strategy within your business, you may also like:

SYS 090: A Simple Meeting Hack That Insanely Improves Teamwork and Morale (and Profits!)

Guidelines on Registration & Tax Obligations for Filipino VAs

SYS 040: F Work, Let’s Play! – Interview with Author John Williams

How Small Business Owners Leverage The SixR System To Achieve Time Freedom In Under 90 Days

Free On-Demand Masterclass

KEY TAKEAWAYS: Staff Training That Builds Confidence, Not Dependency

How Small Business Owners
Leverage The SixR System
To Achieve Time Freedom
In Under 90 Days